#182 - Approachable 2-Wire with Rain Bird's Steve Barendt

[00:00:00] I mean, again, we're not just talking about time saving, we're talking about error saving. And when you're learning decoders and you're going through that process, you get LED feedback on those decoders. So you also get that instant feedback of, is every decoder actually connected to the two-wire path?

[00:00:17] If I installed a system with 18 decoders and the controller tells me, hey, we found 15 decoders. Well, I know that something's missing now. I can go start looking for LEDs that aren't on. I can see where in the configuration I'm missing numbers. So it will tell me exactly where to go start looking for what's not connected. So getting that instant feedback of, I know it's connected. I know it's communicating. I know it found it. Life's good here.

[00:00:51] If you are an irrigation professional, old or new, who designs, installs, or maintains high-end residential, commercial, or municipal properties, and you want to use technology to improve your business, to get a leg up on your competition, even if you're an old school irrigator from the days of hydraulic systems, this show is for you. Welcome back to The Sprinkler Nerd Show. I'm your host, Andy Humphrey. And today I'm joined by Steve.

[00:01:19] Steve Barron. Steve is a Senior Product Manager for Controllers at Rainbird. And before we start, I want to give Steve special kudos because I dropped in on Steve unexpectedly at the new product innovation area of the IA show this fall. Totally unexpected. And Steve did a fantastic two-minute product video pitch for me. And because of that video pitch, it really sparked my interest.

[00:01:48] So I thought it would be interesting to talk with Steve today about the current state of irrigation two-wire technology, Rainbird's new ESP two-wire controller, and go under the hood a little bit since we have the Rainbird Product Manager with us today. Okay. So with that, Steve, welcome to The Sprinkler Nerd Show. I appreciate it. Thank you. And I appreciate the compliments on the eloquent two-minute elevator speech.

[00:02:16] I'm not sure how eloquent it was, but you definitely got the two-minute version. I'm looking forward to spending more time talking about it. Yeah, thank you. And for those of you interested, there is a YouTube short on the Sprinkler Supply Store YouTube channel that you can watch. And you can decide how precise Steve was able to deliver the two-minute elevator pitch.

[00:02:39] So Steve, I think we should get right into the controller so that nobody is wasting any time and we can keep their interest here today. But before we do that, can you just give maybe the 60-second or two-minute background on your term here with Rainbird? Yeah, so I've been with Rainbird now for just over 10 years. I spent the first seven years of my time at Rainbird on our sales team. So I was a contractor account manager in the Austin, Texas area.

[00:03:09] I did that for quite some time before moving inside as a product manager for controllers. And I think it gave me some unique insights. You know, I think it's always good to have some field experience and understand our customers and what some of their pain points and struggles are. And I think it helps us be more effective at developing new products to address those things. So the way I think of this is we're a solution-based company.

[00:03:35] And so understanding what some of the challenges are in the field really helps us to just be really effective at creating some collusions. I'm actually very glad that you mentioned that because it is important, I think, to have experience in the field as you're developing products because you've been working with the customers. And if the customer experiences the goal, then you should know what it's like to be in the shoes of the customer.

[00:04:05] Sure. Absolutely. Okay. The key word that I took away just sort of doing my little homework before prepping here was that the controller is positioned as approachable two-wire, which I really, really like that kind of the wording and the phrase of that because two-wire historically has not always been approachable,

[00:04:28] except for those who have dedicated the time to learn electrical wire troubleshooting inside and out. So the fact that this particular controller is approachable really resonated with me. So maybe we can just start the conversation about your ESP-2 wire sort of framed around that approachableness and what that means to you and Rainbird and the customer.

[00:04:54] Yeah, I'm actually really glad that that caught on with you and resonated because I choose a lot of those words very carefully when we talk about the controller because I want the intent of the product to really come across. So I think to talk about that, I think we have to start the conversation with the fact that two-wire as an installation technique provides inherent benefits, right?

[00:05:24] I mean, when you look at the cost of installing a system, wire is a very volatile component. So when you're quoting a job, prices go up, they go down. So the more you can save on wire, the better off you're going to be at quoting those jobs and keeping your costs trackable. Also, you get the ability to expand on the systems down the road really easily by just tagging onto the two-wire path and installing more decoders at more valves so you're not needing to run additional wires.

[00:05:54] It just has so many of these benefits. So the key here for me is being able to provide those benefits but removing some of the barriers to entry. So having spent that time on the sales team, I can tell you that some of the most common requests that you get are for two-wire training and to go out and help troubleshoot two-wire systems.

[00:06:21] So this is absolutely, those are two of the most common things you hear when you're a contractor, account manager. And so removing barriers to entry is huge for me. When we talk about two-wire training, we're always preaching the gospel on what type of wire you need to use, what type of wire connectors you need to use, why that is the case. We train on troubleshooting and how to go through all of that. We do it in classroom.

[00:06:49] We do it on actual job sites when there are problems. And so the key for this product as we were developing it was how can we reduce the training burden, right? Get people who maybe have never installed a two-wire system comfortable with installing this product and with parts that they're familiar and comfortable with.

[00:07:13] So one of the things we talked about when you approached me at the IA show was the ability to use standard irrigation wire, standard irrigation wire connectors. So that way, even somebody who's never installed two-wire, they don't need to go buy a special kind of wire. They don't need to buy special wire connectors. They can use products that they're comfortable, familiar with, that they already have on their truck. Can we, I'm going to interrupt you for a moment. Can we define what it means as standard? What is standard irrigation wire? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:43] So most two-wire controller manufacturers will spec a specific kind of wire for their controller. So for other Rainbird two-wire controllers, we spec the use of what's called maxi cable. And it's basically two parallel wires that have an outer jacket that's co-molded around those wires. And it's something that you would need to buy special for the installation of that controller.

[00:08:09] When I talk about standard wire, really the reason I phrase it that way is because what is standard varies from place to place. In some markets, they use multi-strand wire down to 18 gauge. Some other markets like to use just 14 gauge red and white wires. And either of those are acceptable. As long as it's direct burial irrigation wire, you should be fine down to 18 gauge. Okay.

[00:08:35] So a direct burial irrigation wire, you know, essentially that phrase, direct burial irrigation wire will meet the specification for this controller of... That's correct. And similarly with the wire connectors, I believe most of the two-wire platforms on the market spec the use of 600-volt rated wire connectors. And the reason for that is on most two-wire systems, the two-wire path is always energized.

[00:09:03] And so with current constantly on the two-wire path, the connections heat up. They carry some heat. And if you use standard irrigation wire connectors that you would use on a traditionally wired system, that gel will heat up and leak out. And the next time it rains, you get water that fills up. You get water on your connections. You start to build corrosion and resistance. And it creates a whole host of problems.

[00:09:31] Well, with this controller platform, the two-wire path is only energized whenever something is active. Whenever a station is running or when you're learning the coder addresses, which I'm sure we'll get to. But we first, anytime the controller carries out some action, the first thing it does is energize the two-wire path. So because of that, it acts more like a traditionally wired system. And so we can use the standard, what I call standard irrigation wire, standard irrigation wire connectors.

[00:10:01] Essentially, going back to what we started talking about in removing some of the training and parts burden, is whatever parts you have on your truck for a traditionally wired system, you can use here. And would it be safe to say that you could use better connections? So it sounds like you're saying there's a minimum, meaning any standard irrigation wire is the minimum.

[00:10:24] But there's certainly the contractor's choice to use something that might be above that if they wish. And that would really be potentially just saving their team time and money for maintenance, but not the integrity of the operation of the controller. Yeah, that's really well said. So yes, is the simple answer to your question. To put it a little more complex, if you are a contractor who is well-versed and comfortable with two-wire,

[00:10:54] and you regularly install two-wire systems, other types of platforms, and you don't want to muddy the waters by carrying different kinds of connectors or different kinds of wire, that's the standard for you. You can absolutely still use those products with this controller. Okay, so there won't be any void of warranty, let's say, if a standard irrigation gel-filled wire connector, let's say, is used on the system. Correct. Okay, very good.

[00:11:24] I would like to talk about the auto address functionality, but because we are still talking about the wire and the wire connectors, can you elaborate a little bit more on the power always on versus power only on when the system is in operation? Yeah, so like I said, all the other two-wire platforms that are out there and the other two-wire controllers that Rainbird manufactures and sells, two-wire path, it's always energized.

[00:11:53] And anybody who's ever done any troubleshooting on a two-wire system and gotten a slight little shock in their fingers when testing their connections will attest to that. On this system, the two-wire path is completely off. There's no current in it. There's no energy in it. And so unless the controller is either actively running a station, if it is potentially in short-finding mode or if it's finding decoders or doing some action,

[00:12:22] the two-wire path is completely de-energized. So that's the way that a traditionally wired system works. There's no current in any of the wires unless that station is active, and then the controller sends current down that wire path. So like I said, it acts a lot more like a traditionally wired system in that way. And does that functionality, I have a thought in my mind here, but I want to try to explore a little bit.

[00:12:51] Does that functionality, which has inherent benefits, of course, on the wire integrity and life of the wire, if it's not under power all the time, does that have any effect on what the capabilities of the system can be with that spec in mind? It does. It does. And I'm glad you bring that up because if we can, I'd like to spend a little time talking about where this controller is positioned.

[00:13:19] Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you say that because there are lots of segments in the market. And the idea is to position a product for a specific segment. And if somebody says, if it's any product in the irrigation industries, X product doesn't work because blank, well, maybe it wasn't designed for blank. Exactly. So to me, this is all about choosing the right tool for the right job. And this controller is certainly not intended to accommodate every job site out there.

[00:13:47] We had a very specific intent in mind at creating it. And I, having spent time on the sales team, and although I managed this product and our ESPN V3, I happen to think that our LXIVM platform is probably the best and most capable two-wire platform on the market. And some of the benefits that you get of having the two-wire path always energized, and specifically with our LXIVM platform,

[00:14:16] is you do get two-way communications. And so you can get a lot of insight into what is happening on the two-wire path and communication with each valve in real time all the time. So there is real benefit to having that as well. And so that really applies to what I would call commercial job sites, really large applications, large HOAs and parks,

[00:14:44] or anything where you need just more complex control. And that would be the ESPN LXIVM, right? Correct. So both have their advantages and disadvantages in that way. With the LXIVM choosing the right products and the right installation technique, that product will last a very, very long time in the field.

[00:15:05] But that does come with the need to make sure that the installing contractor is up to speed on technique. And the right products. What market is the ESP-2-wire, the one that we're going to talk more about today? What market is that positioned for? Yeah. So you mentioned your video earlier, so hopefully everybody will have a chance to look at it.

[00:15:32] But I think one of the first things that jumps out at you when you see it is we built it on the ESP-ME3 platform. So the ESP-ME3 is industry-leading modular controller, base of four stations up to 22 stations, traditionally wired, upgradable with three or six station expansion modules. So the launch of the ESP-ME3 platform back in 2018, 2019, that timeframe,

[00:16:02] we consolidated dial positions. We tried to make it look and feel and act more like other controllers, like our TM2, our LX controllers. If you look at our controller lineup, they mostly all look and function and act the same. And so that controller, modular up to 22 stations, traditionally wired platform, this controller looks almost identical.

[00:16:29] Really the major difference is the addition of the two-wire setting style position, where all the two-wire things lid. But outside of that, it programs exactly the same as an ME3. So we try to keep that familiarity. And the reason for that is with ME3 going up to 22 stations, and then you get up into our LX controller line, where we have the LX-ME2 that goes from 12 to 48 stations, traditionally wired,

[00:16:58] and then the LX-IVM, which is, you know, again, a big, powerful controller. There's a middle ground of projects or project types, where there's just kind of a question mark of what type of product should I use? Can I get away with a smaller platform, traditionally wired? Do I need a bigger LX type of controller with traditional wire? Or does it make sense to go to two-wire?

[00:17:27] My understanding from my time in the field is when contractors look at two-wire, they each have kind of a number of stations in mind when they're looking at does it make sense. Generally, it's around 30 stations where it's a break-even, and it makes financial sense to use two-wire. But what this controller does is it lowers that break-even point to where it makes financial sense when you look at the cost savings of the wire

[00:17:54] and how it offsets with the cost of buying decoders. The break-even is around 12 to 15 stations on this platform. So now when you're looking at large residential or light commercial projects, I like to think of, you know, you drive around and you look at fast food places or small strip centers or, you know, hotels, chain hotels, and any of those smaller types of applications where they're not really big, true commercial sites

[00:18:24] that might require the power of an LX controller, LX IBM. But also, maybe you need a little bit more than some of the residential platforms. That makes sense. And while we're here and we're talking about the ESP platform, ESP-ME and the two-wire and the LX, do you have any history

[00:18:52] on those three letters, ESP, and what that means and why it's still being used, et cetera? Yeah, yeah. I can give you a little bit of background on that. If you're not familiar with what ESP stands for, ESP stands for Extra Simple Programming. That is the acronym. And it really is the prefix for almost all of our controllers. And what that's referring to really is the ease and the simplicity

[00:19:22] of the dial, the buttons, the user interface of the controller and how you can navigate it. I quietly kind of joke about this controller puts, at least in terms of two-wire the S, back in ESP, makes it truly simple to use a two-wire. Very good. About approximately when did Rainbird launch their first ESP? Do you know? You know, I don't know.

[00:19:51] I don't know the answer to that. Yeah, it would be interesting to know the story. Like, did it go from, is this when things went from hydraulic to, you know, mechanical or when it went from mechanical to digital and there was, you know, squares and buttons versus a dial? Was it the invention of the dial? It would be, you know, I'm not asking you to have the answer. I'm just saying it would be interesting to know the true history of ESP. Yeah, it's an interesting bit of trivia that I don't, unfortunately, don't have the answer to. But, you know, the really interesting thing

[00:20:21] about ESP to me and having spent time in sales is typically a lot of contractors in a lot of different markets will come in and when they talk about the ESP controller, I want to buy the ESP controller. What they're referring to is the ESP ME3 and not really fully grasping that ESP is the prefix for every controller. ESP TM2, ESP ME3, ESP LX ME2, ESP LX IBM.

[00:20:49] But they'll talk about ESP as though it's only referring to the ME3. Are there any controllers that don't start with ESP or is that for every controller? The only one that does not is the RC2. So we launched RC2 a couple years ago and it does not have the dial. It does not have the screen on it. It's mobile first and it's kind of a play on the original RC controller

[00:21:19] that we had that also did not have that ESP prefix. So that's the only one that does not carry that. Good. Little history for all you guys listening. Okay, so that helps with positioning and that makes total sense trying to drive down the, I guess, the overall total cost of installation on a site, bringing that down to 12 or 15 zones where I think you said historically it was maybe 30 or 40 is pretty amazing. Again, I'm just thinking out loud

[00:21:46] if the cost of the system remains the same, we're just switching from instead of having a bundle of wires. Now we have two wires and decoders that represent the previous cost of the wire. So it's kind of eating away a little bit at the wire business. Rainbird is not in, Rainbird may sell wire but they are not in the wire business unlike bigger manufacturers that only make wire. So it's also an interesting way to just take some margin

[00:22:16] from one product class and move it to another product class and then therefore giving some benefits to the installation contractor for faster installation, et cetera. So you mentioned that us not being in the wire business. I can tell you this. One thing that we very, very clearly are in the business of is trying to provide solutions and technological advances that help customers

[00:22:45] do their jobs easier. and so when we did some of the early field testing on this, we had contractors who had never done two wire because it intimidated them. They didn't want to have to learn a new installation technique. They just did not want to deal with it, period. And somehow some of our sales team members convinced them to give this controller a shot given that you don't need to change the types of products. Just let me give you a quick 30-second tutorial

[00:23:15] on installing decoders and their response was basically that they may never use another controller again. The installation was so easy and so straightforward. The programming was so intuitive that they didn't want to go back. So that is one thing we very clearly are in the business of is trying to provide solutions to our customers. That's really good. Thanks for sharing that. That leads a little bit

[00:23:45] that leads me in the direction of one of the additional pain points of two wire is the troubleshooting. And there's a couple key features of this controller that stuck out to me when I learned about it and then just reviewing some of the more technical information. And you may have more but I would love to learn a little bit about both short finding mode and also learn about the LED diagnostics of the decoder. We took this opportunity in creating

[00:24:15] a new product from the ground up to install some red, green, and blue LEDs on every decoder. Having spent some time in the field helping troubleshoot two wire systems you're always kind of left with a question mark of what is the issue here? I know I've got a problem at this zone. Is it the decoder? Is it the valve? Is it solenoid? What is the issue? And I always try to keep things very simple, very straightforward. And always lead with the easiest

[00:24:44] things first. I think with two wire it's created enough of a headache for enough people that it's always the first thing to be blamed. Right? But I usually start with, okay, do we have water? Right? Yeah. Is it a hydraulic problem or an electrical problem? Is the water, is the valve closed to the water source? Yes. Let's isolate this to either hydraulic or electric and then kind of starting with go from there.

[00:25:14] So we took that opportunity. We have blue lights if, you know, we're slashing blue lights if we're finding decoders, solid blue lights if we're in what we call power measure mode. That's one of the troubleshooting features that we can talk about. We give some red indications if there's a solenoid short or an open on the solenoid. So we're able to do different things with the LEDs to indicate what's happening on the system. Just give you that

[00:25:43] little bit more insight into what's going on. You also brought up short finding modes. That's something that we brought over from our older LXD platform where basically we can energize the two-wire path and provide constant energy down to be able to try and isolate and find issues. So troubleshooting is kind of a dirty word, right? Nobody likes to think about the negatives, the things that you might have to do one day.

[00:26:13] But if the need should arise for you to troubleshoot the system, we wanted to be able to provide those tools so you can still do it in a way that might be familiar. Use a clamp meter. You're looking for high milliamp draws trying to find shorts or leaks of electricity. And it is a fact that every controller will need someone to troubleshoot it at some point in its life. Whether that's the contractor that installed it

[00:26:42] or somebody else 15 years later, every system will need someone to troubleshoot it at some point. You know, nothing is... We try and make these products as robust as possible. We put them through more testing than I think most people realize and trying to make sure that they're going to be reliable over time. Also, with the understanding of the types of environments that are installed in, right? Decoders are installed

[00:27:12] in inside valve boxes, which are some of the worst places on the planet, especially for building electronic parts. And we build these products with all of that in mind. But none of that will ever take away human factor also. Two-wire system that's up and running great today, tomorrow it's not. I've been on sites where it's like, well, that tree over there looks like it was planted recently.

[00:27:41] Did we cut the two-wire path? And sure enough, somebody cut the two-wire path. So you'll never completely remove the human element either, the need to troubleshoot some of these systems. It's probably one of the bigger elements. It's the one that is the toughest to control, both from the contractor's perspective, installation maintenance, and from a manufacturer's perspective. It's very difficult to monitor and control who is touching the system and what are they doing when they touch the system.

[00:28:11] In addition to sort of the troubleshooting, you know, sometimes systems aren't installed per specification. Can you talk a little bit about the wire distances? Yeah, so the wire distance will vary, just to put it simply. We do have a wire chart that is posted on the webpage for this product. Any of our customers can reach out to our sales team that can get copies of that. We tried to make it as accessible as possible.

[00:28:41] If all you're doing is running a single station, then it's very clear on what the max wire distance is based on the wire size you use. So the heavier gauge, the longer distance you can get. As you start talking about running multiple valves, so master valve plus one station or a pump start relay plus a station, wire distances to your farthest valve location or your farthest station may vary based on how far away the master valve

[00:29:10] is because we're operating two solenoids or potentially a pump start and another solenoid. So I highly recommend checking that out and just getting a good feel for what the wire distances are. But generally what I would say is that wire distances have not been an issue so far. We seem to be providing enough current that for the types of projects that we're looking

[00:29:40] at with this product like we already talked about in positioning. Wire distance does not seem to be an issue. Because then what you're saying is if it's a bigger project you would go up to your IVM platform and out of this platform because now it's a different type of project. As soon as you start talking about really long wire distances you're also probably talking about additional stations, potentially additional points of connection, just more complex control. So with that in mind,

[00:30:09] how many solenoids or valves can this controller operate concurrently at the same time? So this controller is capable of operating two valves at a time. I'm glad you brought this up. Let's talk a little bit about some of the specs here because I mentioned earlier the comparison to the ME3 controller and how this is very similar to that. So two solenoids simultaneously or a pump start relay plus one solenoid. So what that means is if you have a master valve on the system, then you are able to operate the

[00:30:39] master valve plus one station. Okay? If you don't have a master valve on the system, and I think they're mandatory in some places or recommended in a lot of places, but if you don't, then you are able to run two stations simultaneously. You would need to access the controller through the mobile app to activate that function, but it is available. So that's the

[00:31:09] short answer there, but when we talk about the remainder of the specs of the controller, so four programs, six start times per program, the ability to use a flow sensor, a single flip sensor that is as hardwired to the controller, those things all line up really well with the ESP-ME3. Okay, and the flow sensor you just said is hardwired to the controller, and would it be safe to say that is because the

[00:31:38] two wire is not always on, so therefore, if nothing's running, you wouldn't be able to measure flow if it was connected to the two wire path? So that's part of the reason. The other part of it is, again, in my mind, I like to keep things simple for myself and simple for people to understand, and with this product, it is a controller and it is a single station decoder. So there are only two SKUs. That means two SKUs for our distributor partners, that means

[00:32:08] two SKUs for contractors, and you're not needing to question, do I need sensor decoders, do I need grounding equipment, do I need multi-station decoders, potentially, depending on your installation technique. It is only two SKUs. And the master valve, can that be normally closed and normally open, just normally closed? What scenarios does that work for? Great question. Normally closed valve only. Okay.

[00:32:37] With those specifications, that fits with what you just said. It's your basic light commercial, property, or commercial property. That is what you're saying, minimum of probably break even around 12 zones going up, which traditionally typically only has one water source. And very typically that is located near the controller where you can just run your wire into the controller. Yeah. So I'd like

[00:33:07] to say a little bit more about that because I can understand how some of that may sound like limiting factors, right? The ability to operate two solenoids at a time or, you know, the need to hardwire a flow sensor back or some of those may sound like limiting factors for the product, especially given that the controller, and we hadn't talked about this yet, but the station capacity out of the box is up to 50 stations. stations. That does

[00:33:37] not mean that every side it goes onto needs to have 50 stations. Some of the feedback I get is, well, if I have 50 stations, I have, you know, three points of connection or two points of connection or I need to run four stations at a time and it's like, look, I understand that, but 50 stations, 50 is just a number. I will be thinking much more in the 12 to 30 station range,

[00:34:07] but if we limit it at 30, then the next person says, well, I've got 31 stations, I would love to use that controller, but I can't now. So, you know, so it's capable handling greater than 30 up to 50. Right. Instead of thinking of it as a 50 station two-wire controller, because that is the capacity, it's almost better to think of it in reverse, which is an interesting concept. Start your next two-wire project at 12 zones. Like, focus on the 12, not

[00:34:36] the 50, because now you're positioned exactly where you want it to be. Yeah, and this all goes back to what I mentioned earlier, just choosing the right tool for the right job, and when you start to look at what are the needs of the project, and does this product fit, there is a very wide range of applications for this type of product, given that break-even of 12 to 15 stations, and then the ability to go up to 50 should you need to. So I know some

[00:35:06] of that stuff sounds limiting, but the truth is it's not for the intended type of project, and as soon as you need to run four, five, six stations at a time, or you have three or four points of connection, we have controllers that will accommodate those sites, and I strongly encourage the right, right, totally, totally agree with that, positioning is everything. It's rare that manufacturers make a bad product,

[00:35:37] they just sometimes get positioned in places that they shouldn't and therefore can be perceived as bad, but it was not the right tool for the job, it was chosen incorrectly. That's exactly right. Yeah, and that goes from sprinklers, valves, drip, the whole, you know, all irrigation products often get a bad rap because where they were used wasn't the right spot. So, you know, people listening can read the specs, find out all the details. I'd like to ask you a couple questions more related to

[00:36:07] what it's like in a manufacturing company like Rainbird to develop a product. And so, I guess I'd like to start my first question with how long does it take to bring something like this controller to market, meaning it's actually on the shelf at a distribution location? How long is that development process? From inception? From, hey, we need to revamp our controller, we want to do this, to it's now for

[00:36:36] sale. That's a little bit of a tricky question. I would say it may be a little product or project specific. For a controller, it's always a little bit more complex. For a product like this, it was probably a little bit even trickier because you're dealing with a different type of technology. For this product, say that it takes two to three years to bring a product to market like this. And there's a lot to that. Part of the reason we decided to go the direction that we did with

[00:37:06] the platform, with building this out on the ME3 platform, is we put options in front of our customers and ask them what they wanted. needed. We did, you know, we've done focus groups, we've done individual customer interviews, we have a lot of backup on some of the decisions that we made surrounding this product and what it's capable of, what it looks like, what it does. And we did that in multiple phases throughout the project. There's a lot of testing involved, there's

[00:37:36] a lot of regulatory testing involved. There's a lot that goes into developing this product and making sure that it is ready for mass production and sales. So this has taken multiple years. Are there or have you worked on controller projects that are in development and they get to a certain stage and then for one reason or another it just gets shelved?

[00:38:06] So that does happen. It does happen with some products, controller products and otherwise. like most places we go through stage gate procedures and processes and you may get to a point where you decide based on the feedback we're getting that it's just not worth developing any further. We try to if and when we do have those types of things we try and fail early. You try and

[00:38:35] put things out there, get feedback, get early feedback from customers and if it's not something that anybody's interested in doing or buying, then it's not something that we pursue anymore. And on a product like this, approximately, I shouldn't say how many team members worked on it, but how many different humans played a part in the development, touched the product, tested the product, et cetera, et cetera. at Rainbird, not a contractor in the field or

[00:39:05] distributor, but at Rainbird. It's a large number of people from engineering. You have mechanical and electrical engineers and testing engineers and there's molding involved for some of the plastics. It's a large group of people both in the plants, in our engineering offices, and in marketing. Can you talk about how this controller connects to your

[00:39:34] software platform? The controller, just like most of our other controllers, is upgradable with Link2. Once you plug that device in, you can access it through your cell phone, through our mobile app. Today, it's accessible through what I call our legacy mobile app. We just recently, with another controller launch we did, released our Rainbird 2.0 app. Sometime in 2025, we'll be

[00:40:04] bringing this controller onto the 2.0 platform, which will bring some additional benefits. The two-wire platform is updated. It's an updated look and feel, provides some additional usability. The real key there is a software consolidation that we're doing that will also make this controller accessible through our IQ platform. Is it accessible now through IQ? It is not today. Today, it's only accessible through our

[00:40:34] legacy mobile app. In 2025, once we migrate it over to the new platform, it will be accessible on the 2.0 app and on IQ 4. You'd be able to access it from your computer remotely as well. Okay. Is there anything that needs to happen in the field to make that happen or will it just be backwards compatible? But will it auto connect to the new platform? There shouldn't be anything that will need to be done in the field. Once we make that migration,

[00:41:04] then we'll encourage people to delete it from their old app, add it into their new app, the 2.0 app, and then they'll be able to access it from IQ. As it relates to the web platform or the mobile app, does that fall under controller product management? In other words, is that something that you work with or support or develop or is that a different team? So there is a product manager for our mobile

[00:41:34] app and for Link2. That's not me. We have varying responsibilities in terms of products, but there are several controller product managers. So we actually have PMs that manage software platforms and hardware platforms. Okay. And so this controller connects with the Link, which is Wi-Fi. Is that right? Correct. And then is that the only way that it connects? It is. Okay. All right. Well, as we

[00:42:03] start to wrap up here, what haven't I asked that maybe I should have asked or that you would like people to know about either Brainbird, Brainbird controllers, or this particular controller? controller. So I'll lead with this particular controller. There are two things that kind of came up, but we didn't really dive in too much. So we talked about the ability to use standard wire connectors. One thing we didn't talk about is most traditional two-wire

[00:42:35] platforms on the market require grounding in the field. And that's one of those installation techniques that people have a lot of question about. And truthfully, some people just don't do it. With this controller, because of the technology and the way that it works, there's no field grounding required. So there are no additional field grounding modules. If somebody, again, to your question earlier about a more experienced two-wire user who is already doing those types of things, you can ground it. I would say that it's

[00:43:05] optional, but it's not required. The other thing that we really didn't spend much time talking about is two-wire settings position on the controller and getting decoder addresses into the controller. So I think we talked about this a little bit during the short video that you filmed, but this was something that was really important to me to try and get right. When we talk about training people with two-wire, every manufacturer has different methods of

[00:43:35] getting decoder addresses or getting the controller and stations assigned to a specific decoder so it knows which valve to activate when that station's running. Everybody does that a little bit differently. With our other two-wire platforms, you press buttons to manually assign a five-digit address to each station and then that's where that decoder goes. With this system, we have what we call auto-address.

[00:44:05] decoders are sold in cases of 10 where they're in numerical order out of the box. If you install them in the field that way with the lowest decoder address going to the lowest station and then counting up, that's how they come into the controller. The controller will actually scan the two-wire path, find every decoder address connected, and automatically assign them to stations. So that sounds like a lot. There's a lot going on there, right? There's a

[00:44:35] lot to unpack. But basically what that means is you don't need to manually enter anything at the controller. If you put them in order and then go install them in the field, you press a couple buttons, and in about 30 seconds, the controller will have every decoder address connected to it and have them assigned to stations automatically. That's a huge time saving. It's not only a time saving, it saves hassle, it saves

[00:45:05] a tremendous benefit, and it's probably the number one thing I've had positive feedback on with this controller. Yeah, user error as well. Somebody just fat fingers the wrong digits and then they don't know why it's working and four hours later, they're like, oh, shit, I guess that was my fault, I entered it wrong. Exactly, exactly. And if you do get the decoders out of order or later you decide, well, really, I want this address to be at this other station, you can still change it in the controller and you can change it through the mobile app as well.

[00:45:34] So either way that you're connected, you can still rearrange that configuration. Because of that, again, I wanted to get it right so we have the ability to remove stations individually or all the stations, we have methods of rearranging that configuration, and we try to make all of that really easy to use. So I certainly encourage people to check it out.

[00:46:03] If nothing else for that feature, we have videos on the website showing exactly how each of those functions work. They're all short videos, so if you do have somebody in the field who is struggling with something, you can send them a quick less than two-minute video on how to accomplish whatever it is they're trying to do. Because that is so advantageous, is there a reason why other manufacturers don't do that as well? Is there some IP in this?

[00:46:34] Why is this just becoming a thing now versus it just being done this way since the beginning? There's one other manufacturer that has the ability to scan a two-wire path and find all of the decoder addresses. It doesn't, to my knowledge, assign them to stations for you. That's something you would still do manually. You would have a list of addresses and then you would assign them to your stations. But that controller is in a completely different class

[00:47:04] than what we're talking about here. And when I talk about class, I really talk about the positioning, the application type, and the price. This controller with its intended target has a much lower price. So I don't know the answer to your question other than to say this wasn't necessarily an easy feat or something that we took lightly. But getting this to

[00:47:33] be easy to use and intuitive was the key for me. Yeah, and if the decoders are in numerical order, then it auto-searches, then that's pretty straightforward. It is. Yeah, nobody has to say this decoder is number 16. They're just coming in numerical order as such. Right. Yeah. And, you know, again, there are several things that we did in the manufacturing

[00:48:03] process trying to make that simple. When you open up a case of decoders, you can see the addresses on that's on each one. There's a place where you can mark the box. So if you have two boxes, put those two boxes in order, label them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, all the way up through however many zones you have, go put those at those valves and it should bring them back into the controller and that configuration. You can still make tweaks if you need to, but I mean, again, we're not just talking about time

[00:48:33] saving, we're talking about error saving. And when you're learning decoders and you're going through that process, you get LED feedback on those decoders, so you also get that instant feedback of is every decoder actually connected to the two wire path? If I installed a system with 18 decoders and the controller tells me, hey, we found 15 decoders, well, I know that something's missing now. I can go start looking for LEDs that aren't on, I can see where in

[00:49:02] the configuration I'm missing numbers, so it will tell me exactly where to go start looking for what's not connected. So getting that instant feedback of I know it's connected, I know it's communicating, I know it found it, life's good here. Yeah, very good. Is there any IP in the controller or intellectual property patents and such that you guys were able to either establish and or have to look at other competitors and the way they do things while developing it? Yes, we do have

[00:49:32] multiple patents on this. Yeah, it would be, I mean, many times it's not your job to tell people what the patents are, it's their job to research what the patents are. And we have to do our own research up front on patents and ensuring that we're not violating what somebody else is doing. So we do have some unique things that are highly technical that helped us ensure that we're not violating anybody else's patent and provide our own IP. Yeah, I mean, the last thing you want is a competitor

[00:50:02] that has this same controller, by the way, and is now a lower price. Yeah, well, not only that, not only the same technology, but knockoffs, right? Okay, so let's see, is there anything else that I didn't ask or that you want to mention about the platform, Rainbird, etc.? No, I think we covered most of it. I will say, and I led off with this, solutions are something that are very important

[00:50:31] to us. It's something that is always at the forefront of our mind and our marketing group when we talk about new product development. And I would encourage our customers in the field to continue sharing what you need out there. That stuff does make it back to us. It's very important. It funnels through our sales team and up into product management and into marketing management. And we take that stuff seriously. We take our feedback seriously.

[00:51:01] We're always looking for good field testers that will provide good solid feedback on these products without good feedback during field testing processes. It makes it really difficult to gauge how a product is going to fit into the market widely. So I would just say thank you to our customers, our distributors for helping us work through the process on this controller and stay active with us on future development.

[00:51:31] And if somebody is interested in installing one of these controllers or if they've already been installing them and they'd like to share some feedback, would you be willing to share content information or direct them to another avenue for them to share feedback? So we have a full field of sales people. We have contractor account managers, we have distributor managers. I would say funnel that stuff through your local sales contacts. If you don't know who your local sales contact is, that's okay. Generally,

[00:52:01] you can ask a distributor who it is and they could point you in the right direction for that. But I would say funnel that stuff up that way and get active with your sales people because even though perhaps you haven't met them or haven't seen them in a while, there's a lot of ground to cover out there, a lot of folks. And we do appreciate all the feedback and we appreciate our customers and what they do for us. Excellent. Well, Steve, thank you so much for sharing all this information. It's been a pleasure to

[00:52:31] talk with you and go under the hood a little bit with the new ESP two-wire controller. Absolutely. Thank you.