In the episode of the "Sprinkler Nerd Show," host Andy Humphrey and his guest, Paul, embark on a detailed discussion about the technical aspects of irrigation systems, specifically focusing on the importance of flow and pressure monitoring.
Andy begins by recounting his observations of inefficient sprinkler systems at a resort, noting that a vast majority are functioning poorly. He suggests that the resort's irrigation system is so ineffective that it might as well not be in operation. This real-world issue leads him to reflect on the broader implications for the irrigation industry, particularly the innovations in flow and pressure monitoring technologies.
To dive deeper into the topic, Andy introduces a thought experiment based on the game "Would You Rather?" The game is simple: one person poses a dilemma in the form of a question starting with "would you rather," and the other person chooses one of the options. Andy uses this format to pose a significant question to Paul: Given a choice between flow monitoring and pressure monitoring for a commercial irrigation system, which one would you choose?
Paul acknowledges the complexity of the question. Traditionally, the industry relied heavily on flow monitoring, with pressure monitoring being a more recent development. He expresses a preference for both but understands that the question demands a choice.
The conversation shifts to an in-depth analysis of the two monitoring methods. Flow monitoring is essential for understanding water usage and identifying leaks through abnormal flow patterns. It is a vital tool for water conservation and efficient system management. On the other hand, pressure monitoring provides diagnostic insights that are not immediately apparent through flow data alone. For instance, pressure fluctuations can indicate issues with the municipal water supply that could affect irrigation system performance.
Andy and Paul discuss the scenarios where one type of monitoring may be more advantageous than the other. For example, Paul shares an anecdote about a situation in Washington, D.C., where several irrigation systems under his management experienced a drop in performance due to a reduction in municipal water pressure. This incident underscores the value of pressure monitoring, as it can provide early warnings about changes in water supply that are beyond the control of the irrigation system manager.
The discussion delves into the practicalities of managing large-scale irrigation systems. They examine how continuous logging of pressure data can provide insights that intermittent readings cannot. Paul points out that as municipal water systems age, providers often reduce water pressure to extend the lifespan of the infrastructure, impacting irrigation systems connected to the municipal supply. This practice, while beneficial to the municipal system, can have unintended consequences for irrigation, making pressure monitoring an invaluable tool for understanding and adapting to these external changes.
As they further explore the nuances of flow and pressure data, Andy and Paul consider the implications of having one without the other. They agree that while flow sensors are crucial for accounting for water usage, pressure sensors offer a more sensitive diagnostic tool that can help explain why certain anomalies in water usage may occur.
Andy then offers a perspective that connects the physical observations of an irrigation system to the data provided by sensors. Walking around the resort, he notices visible signs of system failure, such as broken infrastructure and poorly performing sprinkler zones. He posits that either a flow sensor or a pressure sensor could indicate such problems, but each does so in a different way. A flow sensor could detect a broken pipe through abnormal water usage, while a pressure sensor could indicate a drop in performance due to pressure changes.
As they wrap up their discussion, both Andy and Paul lean towards the importance of pressure monitoring when forced to choose. They liken pressure sensors to a doctor checking blood pressure—a critical first step in diagnosing a patient's health. They explore the idea that while flow is a measurement of consumption, pressure provides a more immediate reflection of system health.
Paul highlights that from a management standpoint, pressure data is more actionable, especially when monitoring remotely. He also notes that installing pressure sensors can be simpler and less intrusive than installing flow sensors, which often require cutting into the mainline. This ease of installation makes pressure sensors a more attractive option for quickly and cost-effectively assessing system performance.
In conclusion, Andy and Paul's conversation in the "Sprinkler Nerd Show" episode brings to light the strategic importance of choosing the right monitoring tools for irrigation systems. They discuss the trade-offs between flow and pressure monitoring and conclude that while both are essential, pressure monitoring may offer a slight edge in terms of diagnostics and system management, particularly when faced with the constraints of municipal water supplies and the need for remote system oversight. Their dialogue is a testament to the evolving technological landscape of irrigation and the need for professionals in the field to adapt and make informed decisions about the tools they use to manage water resources effectively.
[00:00:00] Until you can put eyes into the pipe and that's what we're doing. We're putting eyes into the pipe and the pressure. Andy, I know this is a great topic because we are living and breathing in it but when we did the experiment on my, just say my lab here at my home because I have a lab here and we put pressure gauges on my systems and we were watching pressure and my pressure here in my network was down 20 pounds
[00:00:30] over normal conditions for a season and it had me wonder my irrigation system wasn't working I'm like oh my god we gotta get pumps and you know, I notified the municipality and like hey what is going on? Why are my water pressure lower and the guys like well how do you know that is what he asked me and I'm like because I have pressure gauges on my system and I'm looking at it and they had to reach out
[00:01:00] and I'm going to replace a bunch of their booster pumps at the pump station because they were failing so the municipality had to go in and replace their pumps and now guess what the pressure is back up to normal but there was a full season here at the house lab that we couldn't run the irrigation effectively because it was designed at this pressure
[00:01:26] operating at that pressure but because the pressure was down 15, 20 pounds we had very poor performance for an entire season.
[00:01:38] If you are an irrigation professional older new who designs and stalls or maintains high-end residential commercial or municipal properties
[00:01:47] and you want to use technology to improve your business to get a leg up on your competition even if you're an old school irrigator from the days of hydraulic systems this show is for you.
[00:01:59] So yesterday I was just you know of course looking at the sprinklers here at the resort walking around taking video of all of the sprinklers need to be unfucked which is like 80% of the sprinklers and my mind I'm thinking they shouldn't even be running this system right now.
[00:02:27] Like they literally should not be running it because it's so inefficient that it's just not even worth it essentially.
[00:02:38] Then I just started to have this thought in my mind about you know flow monitoring pressure monitoring you know some of the things that we're working on and I don't know where this came from but then I was reminded in my brain about a game that you know sometimes kids play.
[00:02:57] And I was going to say hey Paul let's just riff on this let's play game the kids play this morning and the game is called would you rather do you know that game.
[00:03:09] You know and so I just for sake of saving time just try to get kind of the definition of what you rather.
[00:03:17] And the really isn't a good one but you basically just ask a question would you rather this or that and then the other person kind of just answers the question so.
[00:03:28] One example might be would you rather be able to fly or read minds would you rather have money or would you rather have fame and if nothing else I mean it fit to me it like sparks conversation to the kids they probably don't
[00:03:44] think about the answers they just move on to the next one so what I wanted to do this morning was play that game with you with one specific question came to my mind when I was walking around the resort looking at the shitty sprinklers barely operating.
[00:04:00] Okay so you game to play.
[00:04:04] Perfect so there and who knows where this might go but the question is would you rather have flow monitoring.
[00:04:14] Or pressure monitoring on a commercial irrigation system.
[00:04:18] Wow that's an interesting question because obviously in the years past we really only had flow monitoring really didn't have pressure monitoring.
[00:04:31] So today I would say wow okay I mean based upon what the tech is available would I rather have flow or pressure of course I would rather have both but.
[00:04:44] Good it's an interesting question because it makes you think a bit deeper on both of them individually because you have to pick one then at least what comes in my mind is well what does each one do best and which one is more valuable.
[00:05:03] But I know one thing that I've struggle with over the years that I've been doing this is if you maintain irrigation systems and.
[00:05:14] You see some distribution issues over the years and you wonder what the heck is going on with the system and then you try to diagnose it.
[00:05:22] And then you put pressure gauges on it but the pressure gauge will only tell you what's happening when you're there at the site you got a data log the pressure gauge or the data logger then go back and look at the pressure what the heck is going on with the pressure.
[00:05:34] So because we really haven't had a remote monitoring capability of pressure it really hasn't been something that's been you know vital element but if I could have pressure sensing continuous logging like we do in flow.
[00:05:49] You know there's a lot of things that these things tell you that we really really would to know and I remember a couple times when we were managing some larger irrigation systems here in Washington DC and our text would go out and they would turn on the systems and they go what Paul these things aren't working anymore their pressures way down.
[00:06:08] We need a pump now what do you mean we need a pump I mean they work last year and then we go okay well let's figure out what's going on and we realize that the pressure from the municipality went down either they restricted it they turned it down they had some issues I don't know what happened but you know a large assortment of our systems did not function the way they had in the past.
[00:06:35] And it was because of the pressure from the municipality went down and now they're not functioning below 20 psi.
[00:06:45] Yeah and you know on top of that too and I know so I've been doing work up on Capitol Hill 25 years right and there's been systems that I've had and maintained in the past that worked fine 10 years ago
[00:07:03] and then you go in today and you know you want to renovate the system and you go look at the pressures coming in from municipality and you recalculate your analysis and go these systems won't work on the city pressure.
[00:07:16] We now have to add booster pumps in order for them the function to a level where we get the distribution uniform that we need so there is information out there now that tells me that the municipality that I'm going to do.
[00:07:32] The municipality that supplies domestic water to whatever area the pressures fluctuate tremendously and I know as a system ages meaning a municipal water system ages they have to do pressure monitoring and regulating because they're going to get bursts and pipes and fittings on the large mains so you know it is a known fact that municipal water suppliers reduced their water pressure
[00:08:01] to allow their system to last longer that then in effect irrigation systems so that's really it in a nutshell.
[00:08:12] Interesting so wow that's beyond what I was what I was thinking so what you're saying is that it's possible that municipalities lower the pressure at certain times or days or occasions to enhance the water.
[00:08:29] What is correct because what it is at a certain time pipe fittings whatever age you know you're hitting the point where they they're going to be failing and you know having a 20 inch main fail it's significant costs for these folks so if they can go in and either put pressure regulators on them or regulate the pressure
[00:08:52] at the pump house to reduce it to whatever ten more pounds down I mean it saves pipe it saves fitting and saves manpower saves leaks it saves break so they do this and it's something that we don't know as irrigation folks that happens unless you actually maintain you know systems over years
[00:09:14] and that's why you know you and I see it more clearly because we put pressure loggers on systems and we can see them but as you know Andy I put pressure loggers on systems but the only ones I've been using is they're blue to they're not cellular yet of course we know that we have them and we can get them but
[00:09:35] you go look at the data and you go see will wow look at where the pressure is now compared to when it was when we installed the system and it could be 10 15 20 pounds lower
[00:09:48] and 20 pounds lower in a domestic system with no pump that's a big deal you know your de-user are down to nothing your systems running at 20 15 psi where you need 30 to 40 psi
[00:10:02] right right and in the in doors interior inside plumbing space you don't see the water because it's inside the pipe the only time you see the waters when you turn on the faucet or you flush the toilet
[00:10:17] but pressure isn't as critical in those moments but outdoors we actually see we look at the pressure differential with the performance of the sprinkler
[00:10:32] right so like walking around this resort here I'm looking and most of the systems most of the zones are crap because there's lots of broken pipes underground like I see water oozing up
[00:10:47] and sprinklers barely operating because there's broken infrastructure but if there was a gauge on the system you know I guess here's the question
[00:10:57] would you rather have a flow sensor to say we have a broken pipe or a pressure sensor and doesn't matter if you have a broken pipe or does it matter if the pressure dropped either one can be an indicator of poor performance
[00:11:13] that's right shut the system down and it just depends on really what you're trying to manage for sure but if you have a lot of large systems out there in a network
[00:11:24] you do want to see what's happening in the pressure because you know that they're we're limited by what the pressure is supplied by the municipality now if we have a booster pump
[00:11:35] I mean it's not as critical because we can at least manage the pressure using a booster pump but I mean I know more than three quarters of the systems that I manage
[00:11:45] that we manage as a company there's no booster pumps so we're limited by what the pressure is from the municipality or the supplier
[00:11:53] and if you have a 10 or 20 pound pressure difference on your network from one year to the next you're just wasting water
[00:12:05] and they you know so thinking about would you rather if you can only pick one what comes to my mind is before I decide which one I'd rather have
[00:12:17] I think about what is the purpose of each device what does each device tell you what is the data that comes out of it and what do you use it for
[00:12:28] and so thinking about a flow sensor it is a counter right it counts one gallon two gallons three gallons four gallons it counts
[00:12:40] and it's important to know how much water you're using and yes it can be used for diagnostic purposes because you could have a high flow or a low flow outside of the baseline operating standard
[00:13:00] but it's main to me its main goal is to count and to count over time and to you know provide you with the consumption, the usage
[00:13:13] and when I think of a pressure gauge it isn't really to count it isn't it's more of a diagnostic tool in some regards
[00:13:26] it's more of a way to diagnose system performance versus you know count over time
[00:13:38] you know one of the things that you and I have been doing over the last gosh it's been year specifically but you know I know we've been working on a couple projects for two years or more
[00:13:48] but the data when we lay the data that you and I analyze the flow and the pressure data comparatively against each other
[00:13:58] and we say well one day we had a zone that was that used 25 hundred gallons and then the next day that same zone at the same amount of minutes was running 27 hundred gallons
[00:14:10] and you're like what what happened what was the difference between one day and the next and then you know you and I look at it go oh look the pressure went up by five pounds
[00:14:22] or we have one day was supposed to be 25 hundred and now it's 23 hundred and we look at it go the pressure was down seven pounds
[00:14:31] so when you actually analyze the data and you look at it closely pressure is a big tool to figure out why my flow is up or down because as pressure goes up, flow goes up
[00:14:46] pressure goes down, flow goes down and that's a big deal when it comes to that right?
[00:14:51] Exactly.
[00:14:53] Yeah and when I'm thinking about the flow sensor and let's just say you have a high flow setting of let's just say 10% keep the math easy
[00:15:01] you can say hey if this zone is running 10% above normal I want you to shut it down and send me alarm
[00:15:07] well based on what you just said what we have seen is that it's possible that a 10% high flow is not a broken system
[00:15:19] there's nothing wrong with that zone at all it's simply running 10% high because the pressure is up that day
[00:15:26] You could get false alarms.
[00:15:28] And then you don't have any data point to go well why would that happen right?
[00:15:32] And if you if you overlaid it with the pressure and go okay well here we had a there was a spike in pressure for whatever reason
[00:15:40] and again until you can put eyes into the pipe and that's what we're doing we're putting eyes into the pipe in the pressure
[00:15:48] and go oh wow look the missed in the palli and you know Andy I know this is a great topic because you know we are living and breathing in it
[00:15:56] when we did the experiment on my you know just say my lab here at my home because you know I have a lab here
[00:16:04] and you know we put pressure gauges on my systems and we were watching pressure and you know my pressure here in my network was down 20 pounds
[00:16:15] over normal conditions for a season and it had me wonder my irrigation system wasn't working
[00:16:22] I'm like oh my god we got to get pumps and you know we I notified the municipality like hey you know what is going on
[00:16:30] why are why are my water pressure lower and and the guys like well how do you know that is what he asked me
[00:16:36] And I'm like of course because I have pressure gauges on my system and I'm looking at it and they they had to replace a bunch of their booster pumps
[00:16:48] at the at the pump station because they were they were failing so the municipality had to go in and replace their pumps
[00:16:56] And now guess what the pressure is back up to normal but there was a full season here at the house lab that we we couldn't run the irrigation effectively
[00:17:08] because it was designed at this pressure it was operating at that pressure but because the pressure was down 15 20 pounds
[00:17:15] we had very poor performance for an entire season
[00:17:18] Right right and inside your home it likely was still okay you know because homes aren't necessarily built or sorry the infrastructure
[00:17:30] and the utilities that are brought to the home aren't brought there to run an irrigation system they're there for bodies to parties
[00:17:37] Right right or you know the one way that have we did and my wife realized what was wrong is why is the shower so plain Paul right
[00:17:45] Because usually we had a very nice full shower and I'm like you're right what is wrong
[00:17:51] Right and then we started analyzing the pressure and we go oh shit the pressure's down in the house
[00:17:56] I went to my neighbors their pressure was down you know and all the systems in our neighborhood were inefficient now at this point
[00:18:03] You can see the donuts you know in the system in the the heads weren't popping up fully
[00:18:08] And that's when I notified and contacted the municipality and asked them and then that's what they told me
[00:18:15] Yeah so coming back around to the question would you rather have flow sensing or pressure sensing
[00:18:28] It probably depends however what it depends on is not part of the question here today so I think that well I'll ask you
[00:18:37] You get to go first on this one if you could only have flow or pressure would you rather have flow or pressure
[00:18:43] Well it's it goes back to your question you know what do you what is most important to you when it comes to how you're managing a system
[00:18:51] Because really the data is about management right so if we're managing a system so for Paul and Paul's instance
[00:18:59] Where I need to really provide reports on flow consumption and flow data especially in some of the projects where I do performance contracting
[00:19:11] And those I need the flow because that's a part of my responsibility to report on the flow data
[00:19:18] But if I'm managing an irrigation system for efficiencies I want pressure so there's a dual edge sword there
[00:19:27] In some instances where I have the report on flow I need a flow sensor when I'm managing an irrigation system for precise application of water
[00:19:36] I want pressure
[00:19:38] Yeah that's great I think and I hadn't really ever thought about it in depth you know until the last couple days walking around this resort
[00:19:47] And when you if you think about a system and let's just pretend you only have pressure that's what I try to tell myself okay
[00:19:57] Would you rather and let's just you run the run the snare in your head let's pretend I only have pressure
[00:20:03] Would that be and would that help me better manage the system and I would say yes exactly to your point it's a management tool
[00:20:10] Because flow flow is a management tool but it's a counter and pressure actually is a almost more sensitive to give you real time feedback on the system
[00:20:24] Because if you if you turn on five zones at once what's that going to do affect your pressure so you could almost you could almost do some of the management with flow
[00:20:35] Or some of the management with pressure that you can do with flow but when you have a high flow or a low flow
[00:20:44] What you don't know is why I think that's what came to my mind is that when you're if you're if you're 500 or a thousand miles from a site and you cannot go there
[00:20:55] And you have a high flow or a low flow alert you don't know why and I think that pressure is helps answer the why why is this happening
[00:21:10] And so I think for management of a system I'm almost thinking I would rather have pressure
[00:21:18] And I agree with you and to one of the things that we learned about flow and pressure
[00:21:24] Andy is that pressure you can almost always install a pressure device on a system without cutting into pipelines
[00:21:35] Because almost every single backflow preventer has a port where we can tie a pressure gauge into
[00:21:41] But if you have a system with a two inch or three inch or four inch main line
[00:21:45] Guess what you got to do in order to get the flow
[00:21:48] You got to cut the pipe and cut the filling and put the valve box in and you know it's pretty hard
[00:21:53] But if you want to really simply cost effectively
[00:21:57] Manage a system effectively and inexpensively or cost effectively
[00:22:03] A pressure sensor is the easiest and quickest way to analyze that system
[00:22:08] Yeah, yeah very good very good point
[00:22:12] And there's less room for error in that as well because sometimes flow sensors aren't always installed correctly
[00:22:20] Then the K factors aren't enter correct enter correctly so there's room for error in that
[00:22:26] And you know it'd be kind of like when you go to the doctor what's is the first thing they do when you sit in the chair
[00:22:34] They want to check your pressure
[00:22:36] They want to check your blood pressure right
[00:22:39] They're not checking your blood pressure right they're not checking the flow
[00:22:42] The flow gets checked right when they do your blood test
[00:22:46] And they see what's going on with that but you're right
[00:22:49] You know they do want to check your pressure
[00:22:52] And one of the things too that I've learned about this wireless pressure sensing or deployment is
[00:23:00] We now can deploy pressure sensors along the entire plumbing network
[00:23:06] So you can put one at the backflow
[00:23:09] You can put one on the main line out in the field you can put them on lateral lines if you wanted to
[00:23:16] And you can do them temporarily, you can do them permanently
[00:23:20] Where a flow sensor typically you're going to just put it on the main at the point of connection
[00:23:24] Where if you have a big main infrastructure and you wanted to really see the hydraulic system operating
[00:23:33] You can put these sensors all throughout this main line and validate really what your pressure sensing is looking like
[00:23:39] Yeah, it's costly
[00:23:41] And as well as to see if it holds pressure
[00:23:46] Better great idea on that
[00:23:48] Yeah, it's true
[00:23:50] If you're installing a system for the first time
[00:23:54] Let's check to make sure there's no leaks here
[00:23:57] Let's do an overnight pressure test 24 hour
[00:24:00] Absolutely, I don't know what would be typical in terms of what's the threshold is it allowed to drop by 10 PSI?
[00:24:06] Does it have to stay static?
[00:24:08] Ask the U-type of threshold
[00:24:10] So whenever we install new irrigation systems and you have to do pressure tests
[00:24:14] Whether it's the irrigation main or not
[00:24:17] Typically you're going to see a 24 hour pressure test
[00:24:21] And it must sustain the pressure
[00:24:23] It cannot have any drops at all
[00:24:25] That means there's a leak in the system
[00:24:27] So this is a valid way to be able to do pressure tests
[00:24:32] And even if people are managing systems or analyzing systems or auditing systems
[00:24:37] These tools are great to be able to see if the main line is holding pressure overnight
[00:24:43] Or even almost instantaneously
[00:24:45] That's right
[00:24:47] So let's think of this for all you maintenance contractors out there that might be listening
[00:24:53] The next time you pick up a new client
[00:24:57] Perhaps you should do a 24 hour pressure test
[00:25:03] So that you can identify poor infrastructure before it looks like your problem
[00:25:11] Identify the problem that already exists when you take over the system
[00:25:14] And I've actually never heard of anyone taking over the maintenance on the system
[00:25:18] And doing a 24 hour pressure test to create the baseline
[00:25:22] I mean that just seems like a no-brainer to release liability to identify the system performance when you took it over
[00:25:30] And you know another good point on that and Andy is that if you're doing and taking over a system and you're doing an audit
[00:25:39] It's good to know if you have an ability to check the flow per zone
[00:25:43] But it's also really good to check the pressure per zone
[00:25:46] Because if you got some systems that are running at 10 pounds or 5 pounds
[00:25:52] And then you take it over and then the next year you get a dry spell and this system looks like shit
[00:25:56] And they're like what's wrong? What are you doing?
[00:25:58] Well, you can easily go back to the data and go well we told you when we took it over that the pressure was bad
[00:26:04] And that we recommended a pump but you didn't want to pay for one
[00:26:08] So here's the data
[00:26:10] Right
[00:26:12] Okay, so what's your final answer Paul?
[00:26:15] I'm going to go with pressure
[00:26:17] I'm going to go with pressure
[00:26:19] I mean that's the data point that allows me to if we're monitoring systems remotely
[00:26:25] Which we do significant amounts of
[00:26:28] I can be able to do a better diagnostic here from my desktop than I could
[00:26:34] Ideally I want flow and pressure
[00:26:36] But if I had to choose one especially if I'm doing remote monitoring
[00:26:40] That's the one I need and I want
[00:26:43] Okay, fantastic. I would agree with you
[00:26:46] And I'll take a slight spin
[00:26:48] And I would say that from a digital perspective
[00:26:53] Digital meaning connected in the cloud visible remotely
[00:26:57] I would choose pressure
[00:26:58] Because I would say let's just put an analog water meter on the system
[00:27:02] If we want to count gallons
[00:27:04] We can put a gallon counter on the system
[00:27:07] A water meter but I don't need to look at the water meter all the time
[00:27:11] Necessarily, I can look at the pressure in real time today
[00:27:16] Yesterday but if the water meter is there doesn't even have to be connected to the controller
[00:27:20] It's counting. We got a counter
[00:27:22] Right
[00:27:23] But I want the real time digital pressure reading
[00:27:26] And as you and I both know that the tools are there today
[00:27:30] To be able to now deploy wireless pressure sensors
[00:27:34] Now we don't have the ability to tie them back electronically to the controller yet
[00:27:41] Right yet but it's coming and it's here
[00:27:44] And the technology is available is just a matter of integrating it now into an irrigation system
[00:27:49] Absolutely
[00:27:51] Good, good conversation. Appreciate it Paul. Thank you
[00:27:54] Always welcome
[00:27:55] Until we'll have to do another episode of Would You Rather?
[00:27:58] It's very nice man. It keeps us in a good box
[00:28:00] Talking about something that's like black or white, flow or pressure
[00:28:03] Would you rather have an MPR nozzle or an impact sprinkler?
[00:28:09] I can't wait to introduce you
[00:28:11] Great topic
[00:28:13] Yeah, awesome man
[00:28:15] Appreciate you. Thanks for the good brain share this morning
[00:28:19] And appreciate all you guys listening to another exciting episode of the sprinkler nerd show
[00:28:25] And would you rather?
[00:28:27] Good stuff Andy
[00:28:33] Thanks for watching
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